Doug Mason

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Posts by Doug Mason

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  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  Hi Scholar,
  
  I am pleased you feel flattered. Which appears to confirm my analysis.
  
  I think you are mistaken in limiting the discussion on the WTS's neo-Babylonian chronology to the times since Carl Jonsson's book. I have material that was written in a similar vein in the early 1960s, and I am certain that CTR ran across similar objections in his own time.
  
  The advantages that Carl has includes his multi-lingual ability and his immediate access to good source material, such as at the museums in Europe and England.
  
  When you say that your method is "to present the facts based on the Bible and to compare those fact with interpretation from all sides", to me this means that you start with the WTS's interpretation of the Scriptures. I would have preferred a more objective approach, but that approach does appear to confirm my previous analysis.
  
  Doug
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  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  The difficulty in having a meaningful discussion with "Scholar" is that he and we have different agendas.
  
  Our desire is to examine the facts but his agenda is to defend the WTBTS. That is why he always falls back to their "scholarly ability" rather than to examine the evidences.
  
  JWs believe the WTS because of WHOM it claims to be, regardless of WHAT it is saying ("wait for Jehovah" the questioning JW is told).
  
  As with any population distribution, there are those at the extreme ends. Scholar sits at the very extreme end of the extreme end, which colours his "reasoning".
  
  Doug
• 
  15

  Gen 2:18-22 ---------my take....STORY OR REALITY??????????????????????????

  by fedorE in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah creates adam......ok...all is good.........but jah recognizes that this creature that he just created is all alone...it seems he didnt have plans to create more than one!!!!

  but be that as it may.......ok... all is good........then he says im gona make him a "helper"............ok all is still ok.................. ......so at this point when he recognizes his creatures lonliness what does he do??????.

  beasts............ are introduced to adam .

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  Doug Mason

  I do not believe that the people who joined together the different accounts that make up the current book of Genesis ever intended the result to be taken literally.
  
  They had a message they wanted to get across to a people who were following the vile heathen practices of their neighbors, and wanted them instead to follow their YHWH. The kings and the people of Israel and Judah worshipped the sun, moon and stars, worshiped their Asherah, sacrificed children, and so on.
  
  So these people who gave us the book of Genesis (particularly after the time of Josiah) used myths and legends that had meaning to the people at that time. It is up to use to discover that message and not consider their accounts as necessarily literal. They were a means for achieving an end.
  
  Doug
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  6

  I Think I want to go to Heaven when I die..

  by hilannj in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have never really thought about it.. but i think i do want to go to heaven.. i want to have a personal relationship with jesus, feel comfortable praying to him and to god.

  and even if it is a lie, i want to hope for it and believe it, and someday teach my children the same..

  is that wrong?

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  Doug Mason

  Rather than thinking of getting to heaven in the bye and bye, it's a question of getting heaven into you here and now.
  
  Doug
• 
  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  JC proposes a chronology that:

  • Accepts the WTS’s date of 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.
  • Accepts the WTS’s contention that the 70 years required the complete depopulation of the land. (For this reason, JC misreads Josephus.)
  • Provides a system that accommodates the WTS’s stance on Darius.
  • Accommodates the WTS’s 20-year gap in the Babylonian king-list. (As against contemporary records such as Egibi and Adda-Guppi.)
  • Agrees with the WTS regarding the Absolute Date for the eponymy of Bur-Sagale.
  • Agrees with the WTS that the accepted chronologies are unacceptable.

  The only thing that JC requires the WTS to change are the dates of the start and the finish of the “70 years”. By moving the dates forwards by 4 to 6 years, JC supplies the WTS with a new terminus, one that relates to the 1918-1920 Rutherford history.

  The WTS claims that the Theocratic Kingdom, as instituted through King David, came to its end when the “diadem” was removed from Zedekiah. The WTS says that the “theocratic kingdom” would be re-instituted when Christ took up Kingdom Rule in 1914. (It is my understanding that for the WTS, the “Theocratic Kingdom” is not to be confused with the “Messianic Kingdom” – which ended in 96 CE – or with the eternal “Kingdom of God” – which has no end). 607 BCE thus stands as the significant date for the WTS, since for them that is when the kingdom came to its end. From that date, they derive 1914 CE. JC does nothing to condemn the significance assigned by the WTS to that date.

  JC only provides the WTS with a means for separating further the Destruction of Jerusalem from the start of the “70 years”. By implication, he thus provides the WTS with its reason for separating the setting up of the kingdom in 1914 from the events within the WTS that resulted in the takeover by Rutherford.

  For those of us who want to help JWs escape the jaws of the WTS, we make use of the neo-Babylonian chronology to achieve that end. The information regarding that chronology is but a means to an end – hence the cries of “foul play” by people such as Scholar. So the study of chronology is not done for chronology’s sake, but as a means for exposing the falsehood that is the WTS.

  The major difficulty for JC is that he incorrectly assumes the words “devastation” and “depopulation” are synonymous.

  As I show with the Biblical citations in my depiction of the “70 years” (http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf) Jeremiah did not want the city or its temple to be destroyed, even after prophesying that the 70 years would see its conclusion.

  Archaeological research refutes any idea that the land was ever depopulated after the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Those_Who_Remained_from_Bible_Unearthed.pdf)

  Who would use Wikipedia as a reference source? Perhaps the person who wrote the article?

  I would like to see evidence that the ancient Hebrews used decimal notation (such as “0.4”, for example), and I would like to see that they applied this system to their measure of time.

  As an aside, can anyone tell me if those ancient Hebrews used positional notation in their numbering system, and whether they had a symbol for the value “zero”.

  Doug
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  116

  The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

  (make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

  doug.

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  Doug Mason

  A course in "Religion and Philosophy" is as relevant to these discussions as a course in Underwater Basketweaving.
  
  An Arts Course dealing with various religions and with philosophy, delivered by a state-run, government-funded institution (Deakin University) could be neither theological nor spiritual.
  
  The course is so important that the University does not present it any more.
  
  Doug
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  7

  Jer 29:10 in the Danish 1993 NWT

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have provided a scan of the page from the 1993 danish nwt at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/jer_29-10_danish_1993_nwt.pdf.

  please note that the file has four pages.. i give you my word that this is the page referred to by coj.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  I have provided a scan of the page from the 1993 Danish NWT at:

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Jer_29-10_Danish_1993_NWT.pdf

  Please note that the file has four pages.

  I give you my word that this is the page referred to by COJ.

  Doug
• 
  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  I have been asked by “Scholar” to answer these questions that I had posed to him:

  On what day of which month did your “70 years” end?
  On what day of which month did your “70 years” start?
  On what day of which month did the WTS’s “2520 years” end?
  On what day of which month did the Great War start?

  These questions are of consequence only to that group of old men in Brooklyn, not to Christians or to Jews.

  • When did the “70 years” end?

  This was a period of servitude by Judah and her neighbors to Babylon, which ended when Babylon fell.

  Shortly after the Fall, when Daniel had understood from Jeremiah’s letters the 70 years of “chorbah” that was to be experienced by Jerusalem, Daniel “turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes. [Daniel] prayed to the LORD [his] God and confessed” (Daniel 9:3-4, NIV). Daniel recognized the situation and the need for him to confess on behalf of the people.

  Because the 70 years of servitude by Judah and her neighbours had come to its end, and because of Daniel’s prayer to God, the people were permitted to return to their homeland.

  • When did the “70 years” start?

  Religiously, the start of the “70 years” is associated with the death of Josiah and the ensuing rapid reversal of his reforms.

  Politically, the start of the “70 years” is associated with the demise of Assyria, the decline of Egypt and the rise of Babylon as world powers.

  While Nebuchadnezzar was seen by Jeremiah as the instrument used by Yahweh to punish Judah for the spiritual decline following Josiah’s death, Jeremiah is significantly not specific whether there was one event that triggered the start of their servitude. This is clearly not significant, or Yahweh would have ensured that information would be provided. The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple were unnecessary for the “70 years” to be completed.

  It is likely that the trigger was Nebuchadnezzar’s defeat of Necho and the ensuing transfer of allegiance by Judah from Egypt to Babylon. It is also possible that the trigger might have been Nebuchadnezzar’s accession to the throne or Jeremiah might have backdated the start to the death of Jeremiah’s reformist king Josiah. It does not matter. The significance is in the lessons that were taught. For the Christian it is “come out of Babylon, my people”, for that is where God’s people are.

  • When did the 2520 years end?

  This period is a figment of the imagination of those old men in Brooklyn.

  All agree, including those old men in Brooklyn, that the dream of Nebuchadnezzar had its fulfillment in him. But these old men add that the fulfillment was itself another prophecy. Fascinating as a theory, except they hang everything on that thin thread. See my diagram on page 2 of http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/knight_jump_hermeneutic.pdf

  • When did the Great War commence?

  Jesus warned his disciples against deceivers who would claim to be “Christ” (anointed ones), who would use signs such as wars, earthquakes and famines as signs of

  • the Parousia and the end of the Jewish age (Matthew 24)
  • the destruction of the temple (Mark 13, Luke 21).

  These events are obviously the same.

  “Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.” (Matthew 24:4-6; have a look also at Mark 13:5-7; Luke 21:8-9)

  Doug
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  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  I deliberately started my analysis of the “70 years” with the death of Josiah, the great reforming king of Judah, for he casts a shadow forwards in time and gives meaning to the Babylonian Captivity.
  
  According to the scribes and priests who recorded the Hebrew Scriptures, there was none greater than Josiah, for he rooted out the pagan and heathen religious practices of the surrounding nations.
  
  This period of great reformation gave preeminent power and influence to the priestly class, which was naturally enjoyed by them, and also helped their political endeavors concerning the authority of Jerusalem. Jeremiah enjoyed his ministry during the reign of Josiah. The time of Josiah’s kingship saw the start of the compilation and redaction of the Hebrew Scriptures.
  
  But the unexpected happened. Josiah confronted the new Pharaoh (Necho II) and was killed at Megiddo.
  
  Four Judean kings succeeded Josiah, three of whom were his sons. Each reversed Josiah’s reforms, and the Bible records these kings as doing everything that was evil in the sight of Yahweh. They quickly undid the great reforms wrought by their father.
  
  Jeremiah saw the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar as Yahweh’s instrument, punishing Judah for its spiraling spiritual decline. For this reason, the prophet Jeremiah told the people they had to accept the role that Babylon was playing on Yahweh’s behalf, and they would have to serve Babylon for 70 years (the length of a man’s life).
  
  Thus Jeremiah saw that any attempt by Judah against this decreed servitude was an action against Yahweh’s decision, and would only result in an increase in the severity of their servitude. They could remain in their land, their city and its Temple could remain unscathed, as long as they accepted their punishment from Yahweh at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar and his son and grandson.
  
  Thus Yahweh acted after Daniel who, after reading the letters from Jeremiah, pleaded on their behalf and confessed the errors of their ways.
  
  The Jews owe their strict legalistic obedience to Yahweh to these 70 years of Babylon’s domination. The Jews have been determined that they will never again go into captivity. Nebuchadnezzar achieved what Josiah failed to do.
  
  Doug
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  72

  The "Seventy Years" explained

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

  please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

  please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

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  Doug Mason

  Scholar:

  Many thanks for promising to look at the explanation of the “Seventy Years”.

  You wrote:
  “So your petty theory is bankrupt and needs a shakeup which is what scholar will do and he will tear your theory to shreds.”

  My comment:
  You do yourself a disservice with your frequent use of emotive and provocative language. Not only is it uncalled for, but it demeans the discussion. Use of such words gives me the impression that your argument is so weak that you have to hide behind words that will cause a distraction.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “From the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE which is in fact a precise historic period of 70 years. Voila! This understanding of matters is exactly how Josephus viewed the matter and is based upon the testimony of Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah.”

  My comment:
  The expression “precise historic period” is meaningless. Have you read Josephus at “Against Apion” 1, 20-21? And the expression “is based upon the testimony of Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah” is a bold and as yet unproven assertion.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “The seventy years could only commence whence the whole land was desolated and depopulated causing a complete exile in Babylon and servitude to or for Babylon.”

  My comment:
  Garbage. Utter garbage. Where did you get that idea? Not from the Bible, that’s for sure.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “Thus we have scholar's seventy year formula, to wit: DESOLATION + EXILE + SERVITUDE = 70 years from the FALL in 607 BCE until the RETURN in 537 BCE. Don't you like my formula? Boy, I do!”

  My comment:
  Sad, very sad. It might be “Scholar’s formula” but it is not Jeremiah’s. In my explanation, I studied the texts in their contexts to enable me to arrive at a conclusion, whatever it was going to be. You have a prejudged formula that forces you to bend and squeeze things to try and get them to fit. In my explanation, I present the Biblical texts and explained them. I want you to consider each of my pages and describe those Bible passages as fully as I have. Do not start with the conclusion you want but come as an honest learner.

  You have no right to cite 537 BCE. In our previous discourse, neither you nor I could PROVE whether the Jews returned in 538, 537, 536, or 535. And those clueless WTS writers, suffering from foot-in-mouth disease, provide scenarios that make it impossible for the Jews to return in 537. Besides, 537 to 607 is 71 years, by the inclusive reckoning method used by the Jews. Or don’t you like that formula because it provides the “wrong” answer?

  And so you get to 607. So what? What does that prove happened 70 years previously? The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple were not required events. Indeed, Jeremiah pleaded for the city to be spared, while he consistently held that the servitude would see its completion.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “Jeremiah's seventy years has a partial or elemental reference to the domination of Babylon, it is not wholly Babylon's domination.”

  My comment:
  You obviously don’t believe the Bible when it disagrees with your prejudices.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “Jeremiah addresses Jehovah's judgement against Judah by means of a forced period of seventy years of punishment.”

  My comment:
  Correct, but that 70 years could have come to pass without any need for Judah or any of its neighbours to have their capital and temple destroyed.
  --------------------------
  You wrote:
  “The seventy years are for Judah and Judah alone”

  My comment:
  Read the Bible. You are in for a big surprise!
  --------------------------
  I suggest you move away from your hangup that I am trying to support Carl Jonsson. While I have the greatest respect for his work, my research was carried out while he was still a faithful Witness. If you look through Bruce Price’s magazines during the mid-1970s, you will see original articles by Max Hatton and I on this subject (as well as by Edwin Thiele).

  When Newton brought out his book on Ptolemy, it was I who revealed (in Bruce’s magazine) that Philip Couture was a long-standing JW. I still have the original of Couture’s letter.

  It is significant that people separated by half a world (in the days before computers or the www) came independently to the same conclusions.

  When you respond to my explanation of the “70 years” I want you to explain the Bible passages just as I have – in their immediate and direct context. Show me how I have misapplied the Word. I do not want to see another diatribe peppered with emotive words. I want facts. I want true exegesis. Do not start with the conclusion you want to arrive at, but come to God’s word as a learner.

  On what day of which month did your “70 years” end?
  On what day of which month did your “70 years” start?
  On what day of which month did the WTS’s “2520 years” end?
  On what day of which month did the Great War start?

  Doug